Is it time to leave Modul8 behind? Your comments please...
  • Vibber
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    Is it time to leave Modul8 behind? Your comments please...

    by Vibber » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:09 pm

    Hi Modulaters,
    I'm a dedicated user of modul 8 since 2005 and I have had so many good times as a visualist using your software.

    However now I am facing a dilemma. Should I stay or should I go. Should I stick around or switch to another application. As I develop my own VJ style more and more often I bump into the limitations of Modul8 and wish for features that are not available or are not implemented the way I need.

    Now if I felt that Modul8 was developing and releasing new versions rapidly I would probably stick around but I have a feeling that things have slowed down lately and that Modul8 is being left behind by newer applications such as VDMX.

    Well now instead of just leaving in silence I decided to write you this. I simply miss more communiation about in which direction you are heading with Modul8 so that I know whether to stick around or not.

    Other readers please feel free to comment if you agree or disagree with me.

    Below is a my wish list, just so that you know exactly what my complaints are all about.

    Best regards
    Vibeke aka VJ Udart

    ----



    NEED TO HAVE
    1. A global mask that works (module seems to have bugs)
    2. A global 3D distort - when the projector is hanging in an angle
    3. A sequencer whose settings are saved with the project
    4. BPM based control of all parameters (BPM router does not support parameters in modules)
    5. Better user interface for core image filters (all filters are crammed inside one module. Module is hard to navigate)
    6. Import of layers (with all settings) from other projects

    NICE TO HAVE
    1. A small icon of the media in every layer. Instead of only the name.

    2. A global layer. This layer always goes on top of all the others regardless of what you're doing. Could be used as a global mask, for a global logo, or you could pop in a movie clip that plays while you prepare other things in both the a and b groups.

    3. A 'layer library'. You can drag a layer in and out of the library and all settings will be preserved. This would be a flexible way to move layers around between layer sets.

    4. Multiple preview windows. Especially I would like an 'out' window and a layer window at the same time.
  • Vibber
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    One more thing...

    by Vibber » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:15 pm

    ... just anther thing that bugs me. I use the workspaces a lot, but they seem to mess up and move around quite abit when I restart Modul8. Haven't found out why yet but it's pretty annoying....
  • vanakaru
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    by vanakaru » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:15 pm

    Yes, I have the same dilemma.
    When I started with M8 v.2 I found it to be the most exiting software on the market. But since yearlong wait for 2.5 upgrade things have gone kind of unreliable. This forum is the only support for the app and to have your question ignored makes you feel lost at best.
    And there are some really annoying ways you have to do your work in M8. MIDI and saving has plagued me lately a lot. And you name some others.
    I have been thinking of VDMX as well, but my experience with Quartz Composer is not too happy (it tends to be a CPU hog) and VDMX being closely related makes me weary.
    I would like to continue with M8 and sometimes some of us make it so great. But other times I feel tired of app that does not work the way I expect.
  • Vibber
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    Modul8 vs VDMX

    by Vibber » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:38 pm

    I will be checking out VDMX more thoroughly that's for sure. I have been taking some tutorials and talked to people who use it. They say it's stable enough in itself, but i have also tried running some Quartz comps that made the whole thing crash. I guess that's way it is when you bring in patches from other developers, you can never guarantee absolute stability.

    My biggest gripe about VDMX is the user interface, but I read they are going to do an overhaul of the interface for the next version so I'm excited to see about that.
  • videomasta
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    by videomasta » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:17 pm

    same problems here. i solved the most by writing my own modules.
    this was an big waste of time, because the missing and wrong documentation.

    i am waiting for the mac version of resolume.
    http://www.resolume.com/

    i think, this is a living and more proffessional company.
  • moonbase
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    by moonbase » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:44 pm

    Sort of pretty much agree with the direction of most of the comments so far and I have been using M8 since V1 or before that even.

    I bought a VDMX license three or four months ago; I already had a GRID license and there was some discount because of this which was nice. VDMX is still reckoned to be in Beta - current version is b0.7.0.0
    so bear that in mind but I thought my experiences and thoughts might be useful to people looking at either app.

    VDMX has also had the chance to 'start afresh' with development much more recently compared to M8 and so can make use of the changes in software and in particular Quartz Composer much more efficiently and in a more integrated manner.
    I imagine the M8 guys are well aware of this and working on something to address this as we speak.

    Vibber, your wishlist is spot on, and the workspace moving around thing is soo eff***g irritating, good thread btw :-)

    (edited - blimey, I didn't mean this to become a 'comparison' but it seems to have done, I hope it helps clarify some of the issues raised and sorry if I seem to have taken the thread over but these are all choices I have made lately, thanks.)

    Here goes-

    Masking and proper layer choices in VDMX are great and pretty much as you expect from say Photoshop, exclusion, multiply and all the rest which is such a relief.

    3D distort I've not tried but this is possibly one of those things that will always take time to set-up properly?
    I haven't used it more than twice in M8 and whilst it is layer based it works well.

    The sequencer in VDMX, well there is one, just about, it saves ok but it is a very, very new addition to what is after all beta software and so is a work in progress with all that implies. Lots of potential though.

    BPM control, multiple oscillator and waveform control, audio control, mouse and touchpad control, midi control, Wiimote control, OSC control, keyboard control, ease of integration with Live and more,
    are a HUGE plus point for VDMX and are worth giving it a go on their own almost.
    This was one of the two main reasons I tried VDMX.

    I just did two performance art piece with two musician colleagues and controlled 99% (I could have done 100% I have now figured out) of my complete VDMX show using just a Wiimote -
    4 layers, 3 effects, 80 stills, 30 odd video clips, 2 projectors etc including live video loop sampling via firewire which is the other thing that leads me more and more towards VDMX, quite awesome.
    I only had to look down at the laptop a couple of times during the 40 mins, once for the crash...
    yes, VDMX crashed once during two twenty minute shows, which I can be pretty sure M8 wouldn't have.
    And Wiimotes don't flippin auto sync I discovered.

    I would hazard there are fewer built-in filters available in VDMX but it's close, they are all in one 'module' area and probably no easier to access or set-up on the fly than M8. I like the 'basic' feel to many of them, I find I can get overwhelmed by too much filter choice.
    This doesn't mean they are any less effective.
    You can of course build your own in Quartz or use those as made by others but this won't be for everybody.
    The basic things like say making a layer rotate which are a click away in M8 will however make you scratch your head for a while in VDMX!

    There are multiple ways to save layers and effects in VDMX which can be very confusing but they work well once you have the hang of it and offer another way of making the app your own.

    Icon of media in layer, yep, sort of, one way or the other.

    There are no layers by default in VDMX :-) but you can have as many as you want, machine allowing. I am on a 2.33 PowerBook with 3gb ram
    and I wouldn't even consider using ten layers in VDMX, maybe four or possibly five, absolute absolute maximum - but I know I can do ten in M8.

    Not sure about the layer library question.

    But multiple preview windows, yes, for layers as many as you want, I have one set-up for each layer I use and a separate one for incoming video.
    I group all my layers and then have a preview of them for a main out preview, works well.

    The workspace and GUI question is as complex as it is simple.
    There are two colours for the VDMX interface, Dark Soft or Medium Soft which are both pretty Dark.
    They are very much an acquired taste and the VDMX guys have said they won't be changing this colour scheme any time soon.
    It bugs some users. I am learning to live with it.
    It makes a difference what your computer desktop image is I find. It is very easy to get lost and you need to really work at understanding and laying out VDMX to suit you in order to keep your cool under pressure.
    If you haven't tried VDMX out here is an image of what the screen looks like for a brand new project, very sparse with everything to work for.
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3210/289 ... 0c.jpg?v=0

    There are no workspaces at all in VDMX and I really miss them despite their arbitrary moving around behaviour in M8.
    This means that your screen, whatever size it is, is it, and damn but it can get busy.
    Luckily as you are building your set-up from scratch you get used to what is where, but the M8 way of working is fantastic by comparison foe ease and speed of use.

    VDMX seems much more like Isadora than M8 to me, there is total flexibility as to how you lay elements of the gui out.
    There is total flexibility about how you route pretty much everything to everything but there isn't the built in operability and ease of use that M8 has in spades.
    Just looking at M8 gives you an idea of what it can do and how it does it; this just ain't so with VDMX.

    There is also a much bigger learning curve than M8 but the wonderful things it can do, M8 probably can't.

    I have ended up using both apps and there are instances were I wouldn't dream of using VDMX - workshops for instance or quick and dirty sets where you aren't sure what will happen when or when I'm doing visuals for bands I've never met before.
    But for planned sets where you have 'made' a VDMX interface to suit you and your material, for performance art where you want to get out from behind the laptop and for innovation with Quartz, OSC and various unusual controllers, VDMX has abilities in spades.

    Hope that helps. I love both apps for entirely different reasons and yes it would be good to know more about the direction Modul8 is heading but it is still an awesome application, created and run by totally professional people in my long experience much as VDMX is in my short experience.
    ps - I also will be looking at the new Resolume Avenue3, looks awesome, but I wouldn't always turn to any one of these apps for a total solution to everything.


    btw I'm not connected to either developer, just a user incase it came over all otherwise :-)
  • Vibber
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    by Vibber » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:43 am

    Moonbase,
    Thank you so much for your post. This sort of reply was just what I was looking for. An honest comparison from someone who has tried both VDMX and M8 and has a balanced view.

    I must say that the story of your VDMX crashing deterres me. M8 has never crashed on me during three years of performing with it. That is quite a track record and it's good to remember before I just go and dump M8.

    As for future development of M8 and VDMX goes, we'll just have to wait and see. We might be pleasantly surprised about either one.
  • ilan

    by ilan » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:25 am

    Thank you for your comments.

    To vanakaru: GarageCube we have email based support. There are three individuals who respond to these emails. You will generally receive a response within less then 12 hours. The majority of our users are overjoyed by this as most technical support by email can often take weeks. If the problem you are having with modul8 is very critical your message will be forwarded to the programmers.

    To vibber and others: Please email support at garagecube dot com with a detailed description of this problem you are having with workspaces not being saved so we can take care of it. Our programmer has made attempts to contact you in regards to this problem as he not been able to reproduce it.

    To moonbase: OSC is supported in modul8 via a module that you can download from the GarageCube module library.

    Not too recently we had a restructuring of the development team that temporarily slowed are development. We are back to full speed now. The list of requests mentioned in this thread is almost entirely slated for a future release. The team is working very hard at delivering them.

    Beyond my role as providing communications for GarageCube I am also a visualist. I use modul8 almost exclusively. I have to agree that its limitations and shortcomings are at times frustrating. But I am also aware of the formerly mentioned challenges and realities with developing a complex software. I await the coming version whenever that may be as eagerly as you do.
  • Vibber
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    by Vibber » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:36 am

    Hi senterio,
    Thanx for the reply. Nice to see that the team is paying attention to the forum.

    I think that more communication - teasers on things to look forward to is definitely the way to go to keep people happy (and not grumpy and considering switching like I have done recently)

    Even very early in the process I think all users appreciate small hints of what is coming.

    Keep up the good work
    -Vibeke
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    tdog
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    by tdog » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:14 pm

    i am following this thread with interest. i understand how, as professionals it is easy to get caught up in the "next best thing" - "look at what mine does" sort of thing, and without this attitude development would stand still - however; there is an old saying - "many a fine tune can be played on an old fiddle" - in other words - it's not the tools, it's the creativity that matters.
    i am trying modul8 in demo at the moment, and i find it exceedingly cool - and complex,
    so as far as i'm concerned the only improvement needed to modul8 would be to make it easier to use for an oldie like me!

    peace and love

    tdog

    www.thereddogexperience.org.uk/tdog.html
    By any means necessary....
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    deepvisual
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    by deepvisual » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:35 pm

    anyone struggling with the basics of M8 should take a walk over to my youtube channel, where there are plenty of fun things waiting for you.
    www.youtube.com/deepvisual

    M8 works - hardly anything else out there does..
    that makes it more than good enough for me.
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    tdog
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    by tdog » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:29 pm

    deepvisual wrote:anyone struggling with the basics of M8 should take a walk over to my youtube channel, where there are plenty of fun things waiting for you.
    www.youtube.com/deepvisual

    M8 works - hardly anything else out there does..
    that makes it more than good enough for me.


    I really got to save my pennies and get this software -

    deepvisual:
    followed your advice - and many thanks for sharing your knowledge, much appreciated. - by the way, where is the random movie flash control? is it a module?

    tdog.
    By any means necessary....
  • moonbase
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    by moonbase » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:18 am

    Thanks vibber, it was good to be inspired by a good thread.
    As I said I don't consider it is either/or - you will find uses and times for both apps, I do.
    I sometimes find switching between the two apps inspiring and even though I know M8 pretty well I keep discovering new things.
    I think the moment of boredom is a moment to be appreciated for its potential.

    I must say that the story of your VDMX crashing deters me.

    Don't let put you off vibber, at least have a go with the demo :-)
    It seems, after a crash report to the VDMX guys (just as quick as the M8 guys to respond btw) that some of the stills I was using were in a cranky format and the crash was directly related to an old copy of Perian on my system. Just for interest.

    I have another gig of the same set in a week or so and all should be well. Got the whole set controlled with one wiimote now. Next the ipod touch and osculate.

    OSC is supported in modul8 via a module that you can download from the GarageCube module library.

    Thanks for that senterio, will do. I may just re-create this set-up in M8 and do some comparisons if I get the time. Nice one, and thanks for the news re M8.

    tdog - totally agree, both about not getting caught up in the next best thing and about old fiddles etc :-)
    I also am well into the old dog club, no, I couldn't possibly say, but this stuff helps keeps me interested and humming.
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    deepvisual
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    by deepvisual » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:10 am

    tdog wrote:by the way, where is the random movie flash control? is it a module?

    it is indeed.

    can't remember what its called though..
    hahaha
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    tdog
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    by tdog » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:00 pm

    It seems, after a crash report to the VDMX guys (just as quick as the M8 guys to respond btw) that some of the stills I was using were in a cranky format and the crash was directly related to an old copy of Perian on my system. Just for interest.


    funnily enough - i have been having a problem with A.Nother VJ setup (a"""""s N""J) which was not solved on t'other forum - however - a bit of lateral thinking, disabled Perian plugin _ and lo and behold, problem solved; so thanks for that.


    tdog - totally agree, both about not getting caught up in the next best thing and about old fiddles etc :-)
    I also am well into the old dog club, no, I couldn't possibly say, but this stuff helps keeps me interested and humming.

    [/quote]

    I would also like to thank the developers of this software for enabling me to explore the artist that is in me! even at this late stage in life -


    tdog.
    By any means necessary....

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